La Physique de la conscience

lhommealacigarette a écrit:c'est dommage je trouve que certains physiciens s'emparent d'un débat dans un sujet ou il ne sont pas du tout des spécialistes.

Ambrose Bierce a écrit:Cerveau: organe grâce auquel nous pensons que nous pensons.

lhommealacigarette a écrit:Penrose n'est pas un neurophysicien , c'est déjà LE gros problème

lhommealacigarette a écrit:c'est dommage je trouve que certains physiciens s'emparent d'un débat dans un sujet ou il ne sont pas du tout des spécialistes.

lhommealacigarette a écrit:Ce qui serait serait intéressant c'est d'avoir l'avis annexe de spécialistes de la neuroscience, ne pas se contenter d'écouter un mathématicien et physicien aussi brillant soit t'il.

- Jeffrey R. Reimers: School of Chemistry, The University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia
- Alan E. Mark: School of Chemistry and Molecular Biosciences and Institute for Molecular Biosciences, The University of Queensland, QLD 4072, Australia
- Noel S. Hush: School of Molecular and Microbial Biosciences, The University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia
- Laura K. McKemmish: Research School of Chemistry, The Australian National University, ACT 2600, Australia
- Ross H. McKenzie: School of Mathematics and Physics, The University of Queensland, QLD 4072, Australia

- Computational predictions of volatile anesthetic interactions with the microtubule cytoskeleton: implications for side effects of general anesthesia.
Craddock TJ, St George M, Freedman H, Barakat KH, Damaraju S, Hameroff S, Tuszynski JA.
PLoS One. 2012;7(6):e37251. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0037251. Epub 2012 Jun 25.

- Anesthetics act in quantum channels in brain microtubules to prevent consciousness.
Craddock TJ, Hameroff SR, Ayoub AT, Klobukowski M, Tuszynski JA.
Curr Top Med Chem. 2015;15(6):523-33.

- Cytoskeletal signaling: is memory encoded in microtubule lattices by CaMKII phosphorylation?
Craddock TJ, Tuszynski JA, Hameroff S.
PLoS Comput Biol. 2012;8(3):e1002421. doi: 10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002421.

- The entwined mysteries of anesthesia and consciousness: is there a common underlying mechanism?
Hameroff SR.
Anesthesiology. 2006 Aug;105(2):400-12.

- Quantum computation in brain microtubules: decoherence and biological feasibility.
Hagan S, Hameroff SR, Tuszyński JA.
Phys Rev E Stat Nonlin Soft Matter Phys. 2002 Jun;65(6 Pt 1):061901. Epub 2002 Jun 10.

- Conduction pathways in microtubules, biological quantum computation, and consciousness.
Hameroff S, Nip A, Porter M, Tuszynski J.
Biosystems. 2002 Jan;64(1-3):149-68.

- Anesthesia, consciousness and hydrophobic pockets--a unitary quantum hypothesis of anesthetic action.
Hameroff S.
Toxicol Lett. 1998 Nov 23;100-101:31-9. Review.

- Quantum optical coherence in cytoskeletal microtubules: implications for brain function.
Jibu M, Hagan S, Hameroff SR, Pribram KH, Yasue K.
Biosystems. 1994;32(3):195-209.

- Direct observation of microtubules with the scanning tunneling microscope.
Simić-Krstić Y, Kelley M, Schneiker C, Krasovich M, McCuskey R, Koruga D, Hameroff S.
FASEB J. 1989 Aug;3(10):2184-8.

etc, etc.

nablator a écrit:Que Penrose et Hameroff aient raison ou pas, PG postule que la conscience n'est pas un sous-produit du cerveau, alors la discussion bassement matérialiste sur l'état quantique des microtubules est loin du compte, non ?

Three general possibilities regarding the origin and place of consciousness in the universe have been commonly expressed.

(A) Consciousness is not an independent quality but arose, in terms of conventional physical processes, as a natural evolutionary consequence of the biological adaptation of brains and nervous systems. This prevalent scientific view is that consciousness emerged as a property of complex biological computation during the course of evolution. Opinions vary as to when, where and how consciousness appeared, e.g. only recently in humans, or earlier in lower organisms. Consciousness as an evolutionary adaptation is commonly assumed to be epiphenomenal (i.e. a secondary effect without independent influence [1], [2] and [3]), and also illusory (largely constructing reality, rather than perceiving it [4]). Nonetheless, consciousness is frequently argued to confer beneficial advantages to species [5]. Overall, in this view, consciousness is not an intrinsic feature of the universe.

(B) Consciousness is a separate quality, distinct from physical actions and not controlled by physical laws, that has always been in the universe. Descartes' ‘dualism’, religious viewpoints, and other spiritual approaches assume consciousness has been in the universe all along, e.g. as the ‘ground of being’, ‘creator’ or component of an omnipresent ‘God’ [6]. In this view consciousness can causally influence physical matter and human behavior, but has no basis or description in science [7]. In another approach, panpsychism attributes consciousness to all matter, but without scientific identity or causal influence. Idealism contends consciousness is all that exists, the material world (and science) being an illusion [8]. In all these views, consciousness lies outside science.

(C) Consciousness results from discrete physical events; such events have always existed in the universe as non-cognitive, proto-conscious events, these acting as part of precise physical laws not yet fully understood. Biology evolved a mechanism to orchestrate such events and to couple them to neuronal activity, resulting in meaningful, cognitive, conscious moments and thence also to causal control of behavior. These events are proposed specifically to be moments of quantum state reduction (intrinsic quantum “self-measurement”). Such events need not necessarily be taken as part of current theories of the laws of the universe, but should ultimately be scientifically describable. This is basically the type of view put forward, in very general terms, by the philosopher A.N. Whitehead [9] and [10] and also fleshed out in a scientific framework in the Penrose–Hameroff theory of ‘orchestrated objective reduction’ (‘Orch OR’ [11], [12], [13], [14], [15] and [16]). In the Orch OR theory, these conscious events are terminations of quantum computations in brain microtubules reducing by Diósi–Penrose ‘objective reduction’ (‘OR’), and having experiential qualities. In this view consciousness is an intrinsic feature of the action of the universe.

In summary, we have:

(A) Science/Materialism, with consciousness having no distinctive role [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5].
(B) Dualism/Spirituality, with consciousness (etc.) being outside science [6], [7] and [8].
(C) Science, with consciousness as an essential ingredient of physical laws not yet fully understood [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16] and [17].

nablator a écrit:Quantique ne veut pas dire immatériel.

Antoine Suarez chercheur suisse en physique quantique, est le fondateur du « Center for Quantum Philosophy » à Zurich. Avec le groupe d’Optique quantique de Nicolas Gisin à l’Université de Genève a mis en œuvre des expériences montrant que les corrélations quantiques ont leur origine en dehors de l’espace-temps et que les principes qui gouvernent le monde matériel (conservation de l’énergie par exemple) exigent une coordination immatérielle.

Source: http://colloque.castelvieil.org/Antoine-Suarez

Ted a écrit:

nablator a écrit:Quantique ne veut pas dire immatériel.

Les choses ne sont pas aussi simples, Nablator:

Antoine Suarez chercheur suisse en physique quantique, est le fondateur du « Center for Quantum Philosophy » à Zurich. Avec le groupe d’Optique quantique de Nicolas Gisin à l’Université de Genève a mis en œuvre des expériences montrant que les corrélations quantiques ont leur origine en dehors de l’espace-temps et que les principes qui gouvernent le monde matériel (conservation de l’énergie par exemple) exigent une coordination immatérielle.

Source: http://colloque.castelvieil.org/Antoine-Suarez

Et vous, quel est votre favoris?

nablator a écrit:Il serait plus raisonnable de remarquer que tout est parti d'un malentendu : la conscience, la pensée, la cognition en général est ce que le cerveau fait et produit, pas ce que le cerveau est. Elles ne sont pas matérielles : un processus n'est pas assimilable à son support physique, comme le calcul fait par un ordinateur n'est pas un ensemble de transistors interconnectés de manière complexe.

oncle dom a écrit:Une classique confusion entre matériel et logiciel, quoi...